"My role is focused on listening"

"How often has your life been an uphill battle? Is there another mountain in front of you right now?" This is how the website Mensch und Berge (German) by Pauli Trenkwalder, who supports people on “steep stretches” in their lives, welcomes us as a mountain guide as well as a coach and psychologist. Equally profoundly trained in both professions, he sets off with us into the mountains to consciously step out of everyday life, to reflect and to ponder. However, this involves much more than just the idea of gaining mental distance. Through the accompanied immersion into the silence and nature of the mountains, Pauli Trenkwalder invites us to a particularly valuable change of perspective: In the resonance space of the mountains, we can experience ourselves not only intellectually, but as a “whole” human being, with all our senses and our mind-body-soul connection – this broadens our view and creates trust in ourselves.

Pauli, first of all, thank you very much for finding the time for this interview. Although we are observing the general global trend that many people are moving from the countryside to the city, the pandemic seems to have triggered a reverse trend – at least here in Switzerland. Not only that the mountains were virtually overrun with hikers on the weekends. How do you explain that? Why are we suddenly drawn more and more to nature and the mountains? What effect does it have on us and why? What fascinates you again and again?

Pauli Trenkwalder: If you ask people why they are drawn to nature, the general headline is: “Because it is good for me.” But the motives are very diverse. From sport, performance, feeling the muscles, relaxing, achieving goals, simply “being” to lifestyle trends, everything is there. That there were more hikers out and about was something that I also noticed in South Tyrol, especially in spring 2020. Now that you are allowed to do everything again, the number of people out and about in nature is the same as before. Obviously, we feel the same way about nature as we do about other things: we often only recognize something’s value when we no longer have it. Personally, I am fascinated above all by the fact that in nature and on the mountain we also come closer to each other as people. I have been able to experience profound encounters and friendships during and through my own climbing tours. When you are together, somewhere beyond civilization, it is no longer just about climbing. Above all, it is about being exposed to nature and coming closer to each other as human beings and thus experiencing deep encounters. That still fascinates me to this day. 

The combination of profoundly trained mountain guide and coach seems relatively unique to me. What motivated you to study and combine these two professions?

Pauli Trenkwalder: In short, I was enormously fascinated by both: climbing and mountaineering as well as the deep human encounters and experiences I was able to experience on the mountain. But the path to combining both in an equally professional and serious way and, above all, in a meaningful way, was a long one with a lot of history. Particularly because the combination is rather rare. In retrospect, of course, it always seems easy. But doing justice to both professions at the same time and combining them in a meaningful way was not that trivial. Today, however, the added value of the combination is seen by my clients and recognized by both professions. For example, I am also active in training other mountain guides, precisely because I also have psychology behind me.

The majority of Human Facts’ clients are managers in organizations or companies. Where do you think there are parallels between mountain leaders and business leaders? What can business leaders learn from mountain leaders? What can teams learn in the mountains?

Pauli Trenkwalder: The first thing that comes to mind is the parallel that both make decisions. Because we have to, because we want to, but also because we can. Sometimes the decisions are simple and routine. But often they are more challenging, e.g. when facing the unknown. The weather in the mountains is probably a similarly uncertain component as some market developments are for the management. I also see similarities in the composition of the expertise of the two professions. For both, it is a mixture of internalized rules plus intuition that is increasingly woven together through experience. A professional, whether in mountain guiding or in business management, will always draw on his own experience, especially if he has reflected on it, exchanged it and developed a certain inner distance to it. In the end, however, the focus is not so much on the direct transfer from mountaineering to management. Especially since it is very individual what each person takes away from an experience on the mountain. You don’t learn from the mountain guide, but through the process of being on the move in the mountain. And it is precisely this path that I accompany people on. Therefore, my role is focused on listening and responding.

The pandemic has probably fostered fundamental fears and uncertainties in all areas of life for all of us – be it managers, the self-employed or employees: Fear for our health, loved ones, economic existence, freedom to shape our lives and the future in general. For me, fears are always also an expression of the absence of trust. Trust in life, in ourselves, in others, in the future. From your experience, what can help us not to let fears get the upper hand and to always find our way back to courage and trust? To what extent can the resonance space of the mountains, as you so beautifully call it, help us? What changes have you been able to observe on your tours?

Pauli Trenkwalder: Trust is a central relationship feeling, without which no sense of security or protection can be conveyed or felt. Trust also creates self-confidence and self-confidence in turn leads to the ability to trust. Our self-confidence is significantly nourished by self-efficacy. Hereby, one proves to oneself that one is able to achieve the important things through one's own actions even against resistance. Self-efficacy is gained exclusively in concrete situations and with concrete people. It is considered an essential facet of mental health. By mental health we mean a state of well-being in which a person is able to make full use of their abilities, to cope with the normal stresses of life, to work productively and to contribute to the community.

It is normal and helpful to experience anxiety from time to time. Fear is one of the earliest developed feelings and originally a vital signal that mobilizes self-protective behavior. Therefore, especially in the mountains, it is rather a sign of mental health if people are afraid than if they are not.  

That's the theory. Now to simply think "Now we'll go to the mountains and then everything will be fine again" is unfortunately not the case. Especially in the case of excessive fears or psychological problems, one should in any case consult a clinical psychotherapist. But what people can definitely strengthen in the mountains is their self-efficacy, which is closely linked to self-confidence, trust and mental health.

Pauli Trenkwalder: The relationship work is indeed fundamental in my work and is at the center. It needs a protected framework so that one can open up. I create these conditions first and foremost by listening. In the initial interview, I usually ask the question, "How can I be useful?" And not: "How can I help you?" Because, if I help you, then I am responsible for doing that. When I ask how I can be useful, the person has to think very carefully about what exactly they need from me. That keeps them in control of what they do and what we do. And that usually builds the trust and keeps the person in charge.

If I sense that the trust isn't there, then maybe it just isn't there now and it still needs time and commitment on my part. But if it doesn't work at all, it just doesn't work. That can't be forced. But that only happens very rarely.

In crisis situations in particular, it becomes apparent whether we have trust skills or not. What crisis situations have you already experienced on the mountain with clients and what are the lessons learned that you would recommend to us for dealing with crisis situations?

Pauli Trenkwalder: Those who constantly live beyond their means, whether financially or psychologically, will at some point slip into a "crisis." Then we feel overwhelmed, helpless, don't know what to do, feel a loss of control, despair, hopelessness, no room for maneuver, fear, pressure, etc. - all this can describe such a mental crisis. We observe that stress-related illnesses such as depression, anxiety disorders, burnout, psychosomatic disorders, muscle tension, addiction and obsessive-compulsive disorders are on the rise. Not only because mental stress is increasing but also because we observe a decrease in skills to deal with mental stress. We have learned too few skills to deal with stress.

The best way to deal with crisis situations is therefore good prevention. Whether we handle crises well is determined by our resilience. This raises the question: How can I strengthen, cultivate and nurture my psychological resilience? A significant part of resilience is based on a high level of self-efficacy, the ability to achieve something in the face of resistance, the development of healthy optimism, and a high degree of self-reflection. These are all factors that can also be strengthened on the mountain. At the same time, you are challenged on the mountain because - as in real life - not everything can be planned. It is beneficial for resilience if you are challenged to act spontaneously and intuitively from time to time. Therefore, I think that the mountains are an optimal support if you want to strengthen your own resilience and be prepared for possible psychological crises.

Personally speaking, what changes or transformation in your own life do you attribute to your mountain walks? What has been your most important discovery, insight or lesson learned so far that has changed your life?

Instead of change or transformation, I would rather speak of development. I think my climbing expeditions, which were always connected to travel and friends, have allowed me to experience deep and fulfilling moments of human closeness, which have strongly shaped my life and who I have become. After all, it is not without danger when you are hanging together on a rock wall somewhere in the jungle. It fascinated me to be in this big, enormous nature, to feel small and humble, and nevertheless to be able to move in it.

I believe in the transformative power of good questions that inspire us and can sometimes be life changing. That is why I always like to ask all my interviewees: What question have you been asked (or have you asked yourself) that has changed your life?

Pauli Trenkwalder: It is not so much a single question, but rather the regular questioning of my own behavior by people close to me and the corresponding feedback that illuminates my blind spots and thus makes development possible. This is not always pleasant, but it always brings me further.

Which question did I not ask, that you would have liked to answer?

Pauli Trenkwalder: You don't have to climb mountains to be happy. In my opinion, the mountains are sometimes romanticized a bit too much. When you find out what's good for you, it can be at the seaside, playing chess, climbing mountains or anything else. It all has to do with oneself. Everything that is good for you and helps to strengthen your mental and emotional development seems appropriate to me. Important: as long as the problems are not clinical, you can seek support. As soon as they are clinical problems, I firmly believe that you must seek professional support.

And finally: What do you wish for today’s leaders? What piece of wisdom from the mountains would you give them?

Pauli Trenkwalder: "Take care of yourself, your employees and the company!" It is important to look after yourself, because if you look after yourself, you will have the resources and skills to look after your employees and your company. At the end of the day, this is your job. You can only do it well if you make sure that you are fit, calm and not burnt out.

Dear Pauli, we thank you for your time and sharing your valuable experiences. We wish you many more enlightening and energizing mountain walks with your clients.

Kindly note: With this Human Facts meets Interview format, we aim to give people the opportunity to reflect on issues that are close to their hearts, and to give their personal opinion based on their unique and subjective lifelong professional experiences, independent of their professional role or the organization they usually represent.